In Memoriam Part 1: The Artistic Value of Thriller
The King.
I posted this on The Lesson forum of Okayplayer’s message board this past winter when asked if Thriller was merely a pop album with no artistic value.
I’ve been asked to re-post it, here it is.
I’m still composing my words about what happened yesterday, so I give you this for now.
-Scorp
The Artistic Merit of Thriller
while we all might be sick of hearing it and while it may not be as heavy as a What’s Going On or Innervisions…the fact is many records we regard as “art” dont have the sociological or spiritual depth of those records…
it would be easy to say that the work of Leroy Burgess or even James Brown is fluff based on the subject matter and dismiss it as not being artistic..which is in fact what mainstream music press does to Black music as a whole…and I have a problem with that…
it would be easy to say that I Want You is just a record abt being horny just the same as a Jodeci record is….
now as far as Thriller is concerned, it is an artistic as well as a commercial landmark for these reasons:
A) you said in another post that you do not regard MJ as a songwriter or producer…which is unfair because he CLEARLY does both…as far as his first 2 albums w/Q…..people tend to overestimate Q’s role…they tend to think that without a producer at the helm, Mike is helpless…it was Mike(w/the help of Randy Jackson) who created the the Jackson sound….it wasnt Jackie, Tito, or Marlon….and you see how well Jermaine faired on his own….
the the biggest issue that led J5 to leave Motown was lack of creative control….Mike was tired of being a singing puppet…he wanted his freedom in the studio…
CBS was unsure and made the group do two albums w/Philly Intl…after that it was time to put up or shut up…
so Mike and the boys got in the studio….CBS sent some studio pros in to make sure the shit didnt go wrong….the result was the Destiny album…the album that put them back on top….
with the exception of Blame It On The Boogie, ya boy wrote every song on that record…
he wanted to distance himself from his family and create a new sound for himself….since he’d already lent his sound to the family brand he brought in Q….
NOBODY else wanted Q…the word was that he was too old, that his track record in pop was unproven…look at the facts….before OTW and Thriller, Q was known as a bandleader and film composer, NOT a pop hitmaker….he’d had success w/the Brojays but that’s it…the last pop hit that he was responsible for before that was It’s My Party by Leslie Gore….
if you hit you tube and listen to the demos that Mike brought Q, you will see that very little is different from the album versions…
matter of fact, here ya go:
Dont Stop demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCWJfzH6FDY
Working Day and Night demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t51jUmABMlc
let’s go to the Thriller demos….
The Girl Is Mine demo 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztXxORezhpg
Girl Is Mine studio demo 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWUgNAAfcfU
Billie Jean demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E_1eYWx4fM
so…my point…is that Mike created these albums from his own vision….he hired Quincy for a)legitimacy and 2)to run the studio 3) for his connections 4)quality control
so what you hear is his vision not Quincy’s…so from an artistic standpoint, he didnt just sit around and sing what Quincy put in front of him….he knew what he wanted and hired Q to translate….
after OTW, Mike went and cranked out another Jacksons album, Triumph…where he wrote every song except two…
so w.out Master Quincy, Mike was responsible for:
Shake Your Body
Heartbreak Hotel
Lovely One
Can You Feel It
Walk Right Now
Things I Do For You
…and the remaining songs on both Jacksons albums of that period…
but the music snobs like to think that Maestro Quincy sat Green Mike down and told him what to do….we can also add the folks that think Rod Temperton wrote every song on those two albums…and that’s the reason why those records came out the way they did…
Mike created those albums from his own creative muse, so artistically for him, that’s a W….
B) as far as Thriller specifically…Mike did something that no one else had done….he created the musical bridge for mainstream music from the 70’s to the 80’s…he was the cat who survived the 70’s and led the way to he 80’s, where most other 70’s cats were tryna figure out what to do next…most of them were doing disco knock-offs and praying for their survival…
people glaze over it now…but what soul/R&B figure could create a hit rock record that was embraced across the board…AND considered authentic by the rock audience?(the snobs may have been pissed off, but they werent the ones buying the records)…what soul/R&B cat was collaborating with Van Halen….and have it WORK?
it wasnt Prince….w/out Beat It, could you have a Let’s Go Crazy?
what other soul/R&B cat could get one of the Beatles on Black radio in the 80’s?
what soul/R&B cat would get Vincent Price to drop spoken word in the middle a funk/R&B cut cum horror movie?
who was else at the time was incorporating African chants and percussion at a time when everyone was whitening it up sonically(including MJ)…and who would reference Soul Makossa in the 80’s?
listen to the fact that a Black artist who was considered strictly soul/R&B decided to do a stylistic tour de force in one album when it hadnt been done before…
Thriller had:
Funk
straight R&B
Quiet Storm
MOR Pop
Rock
…all in one album by a Black aritst when such a thing was not only unheard of but frowned upon…..
futhermore, on Thriller he spoke abt teen preganancy, gang violence, challenging the social constructs of manhood, the culture of gossip, emotional blackmail, obsession, false accusations of paternity, and belief in one’s self…
fluff?
these are ARTISTIC RISKS….they could have gone horribly awry, but they didnt….he did the record HIS way….and in a rare occurence that we will only see once in a lifetime, hit the bulls-eye and pleased EVERYBODY…the effects of that had both deep positive and negative effects on his work and the entire music industry after that….
let’s remember…when Thriller was being conceived and recorded, MJ was still thought of as strictly an R&B act (Rolling Stone refused to do a cover story on him at the time), a boy band singer made good and the success or failure of the record was of little consequence to anyone BUT MJ…so pulling those strings wasnt as easy as we’d think it to be….
but WHY did he want to make a record like Thriller?….was it just to win the awards and make copious amounts of dough?
partially, yeah…but beyond that…why would MJ risk his entire career (which he’d done a few times before at that point) on a record that everybody, even QUINCY, thought would only be a mild follow up to OTW?
because he wanted out of the box…he wanted the limitations placed on Black musical artistry lifted…to end the segregation, so to speak…to send a message that you can follow your muse no matter what people say or think…you can do the kind of music you want to do and nobody should get in your way or try to stop you….
and he DID that…he achieved that goal of ARTISTIC freedom that reaps commercial success where it is unusual that the two paths EVER cross…
and whether you believe it or not is beside the point….MJ kicked down a huge barrier with Thriller…and many artists, regardless of culture or genre have reaped the benefits…
so at a superficial glance, it could appear that Thriller is nothing but the hottest chick in school for a couple years…but what happens when you talk to that chick and find out that there’s more there than just eye candy…
so like I said….people can feel how they wanna feel abt the artist and the record, we’re all entitled to our opinions…but give credit where credit is due is all Im saying….
Very well put. He was a pioneer, a visionary, a legend. Thanks for doing this.
I had to break mid-lecture and ask you if I could post this on my site! So powerful!
Informative!!! Couldn’t come at a better time. Just building with my pops last night about MJ’s legend. He’s 50 as well, so he has come up watching MJ but seemed to attribute a bulk of his success to Quincy Jones. While I understand that QJ was instrumental, I just couldn’t come to terms with the fact that MJ’s uniqueness was not self-inspired. The article provided clarity. Peace.
Thank you for this! I think this is something that everyone needed to see. Personally I don’t know why his music or what he did with his music would be in question, although at the time it took place, it makes sense.
Brilliant, and informative and it does justice to the legend himself. Once again, thank you!
this was an incredible read, props.
RIP Mike, you left your mark on a generation
Just credit me and we good.
I’m so sad.. so sad…His death sickens me to the stomache…His impact is tremendous,worldwide..thats why i feel that MJ was/is bigger than music…HIs music brought nothing but ONE love….He is the messias in music and i’m trully blessed to being part of the 80’s generation, cause we had MJ..what will my children have?
No matter what critic pple could have, he is undeniable…we will never know what’s it was like to be in his shoes…cause his road was a lonely road because of his succes….thank you Michael for you excistence…..
R.I.P MJ i will always carry you in my heart
Thanks so much for this. A friend and I were in high school in the 80s when Thriller came out and used to joke that “Now MJ can put ’single-handedly saved the entire record industry’” on his resume.
Great post. I’ve quoted you with a link to this entry on my own blog.
Thanks for this. This helps me understand why I love his music so much. And why this loss so completely devastating.
I just wanted you to know that as a long-time fan of MJ, I really appreciate what you say here and how you say it. Thanks for acknowledging him for the brilliant artist he was. Not just an entertainer, not just a musician, not just a scandal. But an ARTIST, which is a word thrown around too loosely by too many people who don’t really know the meaning of the word.
Ur right about all this. QJ gets too much credit.
But i wasnt aware that Thriller was a underestimated album generally.
Its in a lot of (top)lists of best albums of all time (even in RS magazine).
And a lot of Black artists incorporated (white)Rock way before MJ. Even african chants (stevie wonder). Even Prince had rock in his records before Thriller, Lets go crazy wasnt his first record you know and also had lyrics about the ’social’ stuff you talk about.
Others maybe didnt have the success MJ did. But it was all a matter of time and place.
Dont get me wrong, Thriller is one of my favourite records of all time.
But some facts you state are just wrong.
Beautiful piece. Just excellent. Thank you.
Sure MJ was important but let’s not suddenly reinvent the past in a Jackocentric fashion.
He’s one of a long line of RnB/Jazz artists to push music forward.
Let’s not forget the African Americans who not only innovated but suffered great indignities in the name of civil rights,etc
Louis Armstrong, Ray Charles, Nat King Cole (pulled off stage then beaten up, he went back on to finish the show)
(whether they always wrote their own material or not was never an issue: nobody knocks Sinatra nor Elvis…)
Anyway how do you know who played on the demos? (does it matter?)
Stevie W had some of the best synthesizer programmers in the industry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonto%27s_Expanding_Head_Band
Don’t ever underestimate the importance of producers session musicians and technicians.
Sometimes you just need them to keep things under control and in perspective…
A good creative partnership can be about a chemistry that enables ideas to flow freely.
The measure of artistic merit (pop or otherwise) is in the influence it has on other artists (have they any credibility or just lightweight imitators and dilettantes?) and affect society in a positive way.
Where was his family when he needed them to sort his head out.
Berry Gordy said he was like a son…
He should have grown up musically (crooning and songwriting/producing/choreographing with others).
I am not a fan but can see his place in the history of pop.
Jacko had a lot of interest
For the most part, I DO agree with you. I’m an MJ fan to the core but there are certain things that I believe are downplayed in this discussion.
Quincy Jones was very instrumental in the transformation from disco to pop/R&B for Michael. Yes, he was known for jazz and orchestra but in my opinion it was more of a collaboration. In listening to the special edition interviews, there was more to it than just MJ wanting Vincent Price or rock n roll. Temperton wrote that dialogue in entirety a few moments before Vincent showed up. Also, this sounds as if Jones was just a button pusher and that’s not the case. The quality control that you mention had a lot to do with narrowing down the songs to Thriller (initially called “Starlight”). Truth be told, he did defer to MJ in many instances because he’s an incredible artist. You can’t coach those adlibs and the heartbeat of most of his music (like “Who is It?”). As a producer, he had to focus that genius. Otherwise a genius will continue on and on without much direction.
The climate changed once Quincy left. There was still great music but honestly, some producers didn’t have the same handle on that genius. One good example is the idea that more music means better musics. Most of the Jackson albums never passed 9/10 tracks. The 90’s brought on the thought that 16+ was better. Not true. It leaves more room to wander off track. That’s partially the producer’s call. Just like in film, the actor can kick and scream but it’s up to the filmmaker to make the right choices. The problem is that most people won’t tell a star that they are wrong. They leave it. Same with MJ. It’s hard for a starstruck person to tell a star “NO”.
I DO like the direction that you used in this article. It should encourage people to think. Maybe you should do one about the child abuse charges as well. I won’t even go into that right now.
Tieuel Legacy! aka The DDAd
Writer and Filmmaker
Nice!
Once again, amazingly written, and you are totally spot on about everything. People attribute so much to Quincy’s work while forgetting the already impressive history Mike had behind him. I will stand behind saying that Triumph is one of the best albums I have heard ever, and Destiny holds its own strongly as well. Michael knew what he was doing by going with Quincy, and when Michael knew he no longer needed Quincy to help him deliver his message, he moved on. And what do you know? Still a huge success.